Here is the transcript of Episode 1 of Scuttlebutt:
Welcome everyone to Scuttlebutt, which is the State Defense Force News Roundtable. Our first host is major, general, or bigger data General, major General, I believe.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (00:16): Right? Major general.
Jean Marciniak (00:18):
Okay. I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna screw that up. <Laugh> I’ve met Major General Jay Kogan. He’s gonna be our first host for this new podcast. We’re gonna bring on more hosts as time goes on. But I wanted to get this podcast up and started. I am Jean Nia. I’m going to be the host kind of just transitioning everybody from topic to topic. And I guess how are you doing general? Let me let me see. How are you doing?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (00:45):
I’m doing just fine. Beautiful day here.
Jean Marciniak (00:48):
Oh, yeah. Not, not, not here in Virginia. So, a little bit rainy here. And so it’s yeah, it’s not as good as is over there. We got a bit of news kind of to cover. And I know we only have about an hour, so let me just dive right into it. I gotta, I gotta the main topic is gonna be a juicy one, so I’m gonna save that for last, cuz you know, it’s kind of like the steak. You wanna save it for the end.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (01:13): Okay.
Jean Marciniak (01:14):
So the first thing I wanted to cover is I wanted to get your thoughts. So the Texas State Guard, the second brigade of the Texas State Guard did a massive event recently, a massive mission with the Texas a and M University. Apparently they did a, a massive student led disaster response exercise. 800 students, faculty and military personnel participated. It was a simulated exercise. Generally what this is, is medical students role was to go out into the field following a hurricane, locate casualties, do field assessments of injuries, transfer people to a nearby hospital. And apparently the state guard was among a number of agencies, including the Air Force actually participated along with the Texas Army, national Guard, international Guard. Looks like they had a pretty pretty big event there. So I’m kind of curious, what are your thoughts on that?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (02:21):
Look at any time that a military department decides to use their state guard to augment or be primary in any kind of disaster response. I’m clearly in favor of it. I, I’ve always been a believer in the fact that the state guard’s primary mission really is defensive of the homeland. It’s not going to war. So anytime you can get people that become qualified or certified in these areas, or at least very trained in these areas, that’s, that’s critical. In California, I do know that we’ve, our mantra has been in the state guard. If, if there is a way to certify you, you will be certified. Whether that’s for Swift Water or Stillwater Rescue, or for red cards for fighting fires or or firescope certified for handling boats during flood rescues whatever It might be, or medical qualifications. If there’s an ability to qualify you, we, we require that now, or we won’t send you out on the front line. (03:29):
And it’s our responsibility to resource it and get you qualified. It’s not your responsibility, it’s our responsibility. And if there is no absolute, excuse me, certification, if there is no absolute actual certification available, then we wanna at least get you trained to be qualified to do something. So, step one, certified, available. Step two, if there’s no certifications in an area such as just managing a disaster response like this then gets you qualified to do so, so that when you go out there and are getting involved, you’re not looking around wondering what to do. You already know what to do. And time is always critical in disaster. So I’m, I’m all for any kind of training that is a joint training. You have me at ll
Jean Marciniak (04:15):
I’m kind of curious since, so since you’re the commander of the California State Guard, I don’t know if I mentioned that in the podcast yet, but you’re the commander of the California State Guard. How, how smooth or how difficult is it to work with so many agencies? Cuz it it looks like in this one they worked with university with students army, national Guard, international Guard, and the Air Force. And then it looks like other emergency agencies as well.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (04:43):
Well, let’s face it in your response to an actual mission, you are not really working with the other agency. You have been designated by your Office of Emergency Services to your military department to respond to a mission request. And if there’s a mission out there, it could be effectively given to the National Guard, state Guard. There’s no real, you know, there’s no delineation. It’s up to your own department as to how they want to use you. At that point. You’re usually gonna be under an incident com incident commander, which will be, you know, a cross pollination or whatever agencies are involved in that disaster. For training purposes, that’s a bit different. You often can actually work directly with an agency, like we’ve been training for flood response or tsunami response. And we’ve been working directly with the Coast Guard. So we’ve been going out with Coast Guard boats and simulating exercises.
(05:39):
We did one just last year where we actually took our big boat out, our 47 bit motor I boat, which is the same size as a Coast Guard motor I, but it is actually a Coast Guard motor I boat. And we took our smaller boats out, our hard bottoms and our inflatables, and we landed people on a, our people on a beach to then go do two things. One was to rescue a people that were injured and to arrest any bad actors, and we simulated that. Then we brought the people off the beach onto the smaller boats that were injured and brought ’em out to the big boat where our medical team was waiting to simulate what we do in that kind of an environment. And we deal with the Coast Guard and it works very, very well. Working with state agencies always works well, but there’s a lot more oversight involved in it. So it’s, it’s in a real emergency, it’s gonna be less of a problem in a training. As long as you have the, you know, your, your joint staff from the department on board, everything usually falls into place.
Jean Marciniak (06:43):
Hmm. I’m kind of curious. So when you work with the Coast Guard, is there, since they’re a federal agency what’s the interaction like between state Guard and the Coast Guard?
Not very difficult. We have, we have worked out MOU for utilization of their facilities. We park one of some of our small boats at a Coast Guard facility. And you know, we’ve used actually their, their treasure Island home base up in San Francisco Bay for some of our own personal seminars for, to see if she would used her conference rooms and facilities. It’s not really a big problem, you know, as long as you dot your eyes cross your Ts it’s usually Jags talking to Jags to get it done. But once you’re done, you’re good.
Jean Marciniak (07:31):
Hmm. There’s another item here. And it looks like Texas State Guard six Brigade held a, a disaster, a large scale disaster response exercise with the International Guard. And they did something called aerial port of embarkation or aerial and as well as aerial port of Disinbarcation. Basically, from what I’m reading here, it’s loading casualties on and off, Chinooks and Black Hawks. Have you guys ever done kind of training like that?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (08:01):
Yeah, I mean we have a unit of the Cal of the Cal price guard that is embedded with the 129th rescue wing of the International Guard in Moffitt Field in the San Francisco Bay Area in Silicon Valley, actually. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the personnel there during disasters and actually during missions, are loading pallets, unloading pallets from the C one 30 s. They are working with the para rescue people to get them ready to go out and working with them when they come back. So we’ve become very integral with them from that perspective. But then perfect example of interdisciplinary relationship is we, we received five type six fire trucks from California off board services, and it took us a while to get people certified as crew chiefs and everything. And of course, they’re the people that are actually running the hoses and stuff, but we didn’t have certified drivers for fire trucks.
(09:01):
Well, I’m sure as you well know, one of the, one of the main missions of Air National Guard on their basis is they have fire people because it’s a runway, it’s an air, you know, it’s an air airport, and they’re always prepared for fires. So we worked out a deal with the Air National Guard that we would utilize their certified drivers on an interim basis if necessary for emergency response pending our training, our people, and then being able to do it without them and doing it as our own horse package. So it’s just a dialogue is all. It’s
Jean Marciniak (09:33):
Hmm. Moving on. There’s something I wanted to kind of talk to you about the so in Georgia, Georgia’s known for doing this thing called OP four Posing Forces. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and looks like they did a field training exercise with some army National Guard troops. In essence for those of you guys are not familiar with OP four OP four is it’s called Opposing forces, where you have army National Guard units. Typically it’s a infantry unit that kind of does kind of like a tax deposition, right. And pre, previously they had to take some of their soldiers and use them as an opposing force. So they didn’t get all, their entire unit wouldn’t be com consistently trained together. But Georgia State Defense Force stepped up, said, Hey, you guys can use us well in essence as target practice <laugh>. And so Georgia state Defense Force now is that opposing force. So whenever Army National Guard Unit needs to do you know this you know, attacking procedures, these attacking missions here, the Georgia State Defense Force acts in that role. I wanted to kind of get your feedback on that. Is that something other state defense forces should be doing? Maybe California, what do you think?
Sure. We do it in California too. Oh,
Jean Marciniak (10:55): You do? Oh,
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (10:56):
Wow. Yeah. and it’s, it’s a actually, it’s a really, I mean, we divide ourselves from those missions that are responsive to help train our National Guard brothers and sisters. And then we have our own individual missions, which would be response to disasters that are not in support of the National Guard, but are independent disaster response activities. And when we train the National Guard we predominantly, one of the biggest missions we do is small training, small arms training. We, our small arms training team, our SAT team has qualified over 2000 National Guard soldiers over the last year for their, for their marksmanship, for their ability to carry a weapon effectively. And we also run the E s t, the simulated firing ranges. So what has happened on a couple occasions where National Guard soldiers have been un unable to get qualified on the range in lifetime they’re then sent over to our people who are running the the simulator training environment.
(12:00):
And our people then have the time in inside that building to hone their skills sufficiently enough that as soon as they’re we’re done with them, we send ’em back out on the firing line and they get qualified. They get the personal attention before they become non-qualified in a sense. So that’s one of the things that we do opt for too, because again in reality you’re trying to train a National Guard unit, usually imagery, obviously in tactics. And if they’re training against each other, I don’t think that’s as efficient as having a true opposition force out there. So they don’t know what they’re thinking or what they’re planning and are getting a little bit more realtime environment. We’ve actually run out for, for Navy Seals on a few occasions, not often, but we haven’t addressed it and have done that. And we’ve also done it a couple times at Fort Irwin, the National Training Center in California for a regular army. So our OP four people are very qualified and capable of doing that.
Jean Marciniak (13:05):
Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that. I have to update our records cause I don’t I just have the Georgia defense Force list that has opt for on. I’m, I’m wondering how many other state defense forces do this mission and not aware of it.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (13:18):
I don’t know. And it’s clearly a mission that I think is a very valuable and viable method of supporting your National Guard because I mean, how amazing is it for to get, you know, 25, 50, a hundred, or however many people you need, spread out over a long, you know, a large area acting as an opposition force on a weekend because it’s a drill weekend and you don’t have to pay them. Hmm. I mean, think about it. If you want to use National Guard units as opposition forces, you gotta pay ’em by law. So isn’t it better to get a bunch of volunteers that are very interested and desirous of doing this and they feel good about what they’re doing? I didn’t take it very seriously. I mean, that’s the whole point of volunteerism if you get down to it, is in many ways the, the volunteer is much more pure because the volunteer is not looking with their hand out to get paid. They’re looking at how to do good, how to give back.
Jean Marciniak (14:20):
Is this, do you think the reason why some state defense forces are not doing it is cuz the Army National Guard, I mean the idea hasn’t come up to them or, you know, hasn’t been thought of, or what kind of roadblocks do you think are are in that way?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (14:32):
I actually don’t know. I can’t imagine there would be roll roadblocks that not for it doesn’t require a lot once you’re doing it on your risk assessment it shouldn’t be no big deal, quite frankly. And it’s a way to provide a service with, with simply human power. So in many respects, that’s one of the better ways I think we can often help our, our National Brothers and sisters. And I don’t know how many states do or don’t do it. I simply don’t. It’s not a metric that’s ever come across my desk or I’ve looked at before or, or one even that came in front of me when I was president of Saugus for three years. I simply don’t know the answer to that. But as all things in state defense forces, to the extent that we are used is to the extent that the Adjutant General believes we are value added. If an Jones does not believe we’re gonna be value added, then we’re probably not gonna do it that simple.
Jean Marciniak (15:36):
Hmm. I wanted to ask you just to I know you guys also do, do you guys do base security? I remember reading something about that you guys had a, a unit that did base security at Los Ala Alamos.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (15:48):
Yeah, we have an, yeah, we have an installation support command within State Guard who are literally the arm guards at the gate to Joint Forces training base Jft B down Los Alamedas. We also have people that fill in on weekends at Camp San Obispo where, you know, it’s a little more remote, so you’re not gonna have as many National Guard people drilling there. It’s really a training base without a lot of permanent drillers there necessarily. There are some, don’t get me wrong, there’s actually enough pub gate there, but it’s easier for our people to then on a weekend that’s not a drill weekend, be able to relieve those full-time personnel that are base security during the week. And then if it’s not a, and then if it’s not a drill weekend, we’re, we’re really there in the weekends. And if it is a drill weekend, it allows DMP Brigade not to worry about it. So yeah, we, we’ve done it in both places and it, you know, they’re, they’re fully, you know, up, you know, armed up and properly trained and, and and qualified on the ranges. And they are wearing the appropriate O C I E.
Jean Marciniak (16:52):
Wow. Yeah, I remember reading that in a D O D Inspector General report that you guys do basic security there, but that was like five, 10 years ago, something like that. I’m glad to
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (17:02):
The 2014 report eight years ago. Yeah. but we’re still doing it. And we, and again, that’s a mission that not only National Guard needs, cuz it augments them and gives ’em some time off from a department perspective because the department is often more responsible for base security than actually the component. And so it, it becomes easier for the department to have a, a, a bandwidth of personnel capable and qualified to do the work.
Jean Marciniak (17:38):
Oh, okay. So the last piece of news before we get into the main topic is the Governor’s guards. A lot of people don’t know, a lot of people are not probably familiar with the governor’s guards. They’re also known as the Connecticut Foot Guard, but their official name was Governor’s Guards. They had their first and second foot guard, they also have a horse guard, so it gets a little confused. So they have their first and second company foot guards were deployed for deploying a mobile field hospital. And this was a piece of news that I caught my eye and we posted on the website. And the reason why was because I believe for like 50 years for at least a number of years, the Connecticut Foot Guard with the Governor’s guards, whichever you wanna call them, they were a ceremonial units.
(18:30):
And somewhere about 2020, somewhere around there, right before covid, or at the time of Covid, they started training deploying these mobile field hospitals to assist hospitals with the overflow of COVID. And it, it, this is, I I, I think this is a really great piece of news because, you know, during the last couple of decades, while I was doing, while we were doing state defense force.com, there was little to no news about the Connecticut foot guard. It was usually like, Hey, we did a parade here. We did this event here. But they’re now kind of going into the direction of actually being a vital asset. So I’m kind of curious, where in, you know, since you, you head up one of the leading state guards, state defense forces out there, how would they, I mean, what’s, what would their next step be? Where, where do you think they can go from here? They’re deploying these mobile field hospitals, what would be another mission that would be kind of like, good for them to kind of take on
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (19:38):
Anything and everything? I mean, the sky is the limit. There’s certainly nothing a state guard can’t do. I mean and, and very little it can’t do that. A National Guard doesn’t do well in state command and control. I mean, we’re not gonna go to a war, but a National Guard and state command control go war either. I mean, there are some jobs we’re not gonna do. We’re not gonna fly, you know, f fifteens or F sixteens. We’re not going to handle the missiles or whatever else augmented matters that a National Guard unit has. We’re probably not gonna do sur Sea Burn cuz that takes a regular amount of activity. We’re probably not gonna be mps and we shouldn’t be being a fixed point security force or a security force. It’s not the same thing as being an mp. I don’t see state guards as becoming actual mps.
(20:31):
I see them more from fixed point security aspects. I mean, during disasters. I mean, one of the biggest things you can do is, is, is man traffic control points or security for shelters for displaced persons or or anything or hospitals or generators that have now been set up at hospitals in critical places in in infrastructure where the last thing you want to do is have someone, you know, destroy the generator. Yeah. So it frees up National Guard MP brigades to do their appropriate job, which is what it is. And it allows a proper security force to be able to ensure the integrity of whatever fixed point is being guarded by them. And I see that’s a big future for all state guards once they can convince their powers to be that this is a mission they should have, but the sky’s the limit.
(21:25):
There’s nothing they shouldn’t be doing. And I remember when Connecticut was doing just, you know, the ceremony uniforms, and I was, I think I was president of SA at that time and I remember having a conversation with whomever was in charge. They’re in Connecticut and they two different units where it’s not just one person. I guess it was a couple, my memory may be waning at this point. And they had just received funding for OCPs because I guess in Connecticut the governor realized I better put them in, in, in, in in digitals and get ’em ready for disasters. And it was amazing. I watched, I watched that transition and I, I can’t tell you how proud I went Connecticut cuz I, I am, I was a Connecticut resident. I went to undergrad in Connecticut, graduated college in Connecticut. So I moved to California from Connecticut.
(22:14):
So anything, anything that’s Connecticut centric, I obviously am very fond of. So I think doing a great job, but it’s simply a matter of finding their own niche. It’s what do I have in my personnel that are either qualified or certified or certified or qualified to do something and then let me see if I can bring that information to the powers or simply bring the information powers do you need? If you do, I will go get the people to do that. You, I, I’ve always believed that one of the biggest things you can do is if you get your department to acknowledge that this is a mission that will be good for you, you then can go recruit to that mission. I think it’s anything you, anything you can tell you can miss people you’re capable of doing and then do it cuz you have to perform and produce or you’re gonna get set back. So I think the key, and I’ve seen that in Connecticut and New York and Texas and South Carolina and all the states that have very viable and active state defense forces. They’ve never had a mission failure. I have never yet heard of any of the sdfs being put onto some kind of a mission and having them embarrass the state, their governor, injure people, injure themselves or do anything wrong. It’s always your mission success.
Jean Marciniak (23:35):
So I guess that moves us onto the main topic. I was gonna, I was tempted to kind of jump off topic a few times, but I’m, I have a couple I’m gonna save that for next time. So I wanted to get your feedback on the news that we posted this week because there’s a new bill going on in the Florida State legislature and the, it’s called the Florida State Guard Act house Bill 1285. If for those that you, that want to research a little bit more about it’s house Bill 1285. And this is basically in addition to last year where the state guard was created in Florida. They initially were set up for 400 soldiers and were given 10 million in funding to set up the state guard and, and get it up and running. This new act is taking the Florida State Guard from 400 soldiers as maximum force capacity at 400 soldiers pushing it up to 1500. And then the bill also includes a budget increase from 10 million to 107.9 million within this bill. It’s, that funding is gonna cover a whole bunch of things such as the purchase of aerial maritime vehicles purchase of storage facilities for the state guard and keeping 10 active duty troops on well active duty at all times. I, before I, I kind of, there’s a couple other things that, that Bill has, I wanted to get your feedback on that funding this increase of soldiers the purchase of these vehicles. What’s your feedback?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (25:25):
That’s interesting. Let me explain why. I find I find it that way and I have some mixed emotions about it. I tell you to God, honest truth I don’t, my understanding is they’re, they’re not in military status. Unless I’m wrong. That’s my understanding. John, are they military status or not? Do you
Jean Marciniak (25:46):
Before this bill the, they were considered a civilian force. They were not even supposed to wear any type of military uniform. I was reading the bill this new State guard act. It does, it does put them under the, it’s very strange. It puts ’em as a one of the branches of the Florida Department of Military Affairs. However, the Florida Department of Military Affairs cannot supervise them. So it technically makes them a branch, but it kind of makes them separate in a way. It doesn’t, yeah.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (26:25):
Along the, along those lines, I understand that the TAG is not gonna be in charge of them.
Jean Marciniak (26:29):
No. And that was another piece that is inside that bill. That’s another piece that I wanted to kind of talk to you about because there’s a lot of, I, I saw the Senate session, I was I was watching it and you know, there’s a lot of mixed emotions about that. But I wanted to get it from, you know, from, from you a major general, wanted to get your feedback on it and see what do you think?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (26:53):
Again, like I said, I have mixed emotions. One is we’ve become in year to what I would call the traditional state defense force that is organized consistent with 32 USC 1 0 9. But if you think about 32 USC 1 0 9, it does not say anything other than that the states are effectively authorized to do this. It has grown and morphed into a sub a sub-component of ngb. And although ngb, effectively, if you look at the C N G B I, the management of State Defense forces, it’s really only in relation to them and sources and resources with the National Guard. I mean it, it, it, you know, NGB is basically a bank. It’s, it’s a resourcer. And so I, I guess it’s, it solves a couple problems. One is, from my experience, governors are usually not familiar with their safe defense forces and what they’re capable of doing because too many tags just don’t bother telling them, or there’s no forum for that or identification for it.
(28:09):
So if it’s directly under the governor is this organization is, I think that’s great personally. And if the governor is truly looking to find an expanded response force for disasters and state emergencies why not? I mean, why not? Especially if you’re not planning on using the train their National Guard. If they’re not gonna be augmenting the National Guard or train the National Guard, they’re predominantly available for state operations, then gimme a reason why they need to be under the military department or the tack. Probably none. I mean, I’ve all, I mean, I’ll tell you personally, I think state defense forces are more in line in akin to a relationship with DHS than they are with D O D. We’re not a war fighting operation. And the more we are enmeshed with D O D, the more problems we have for the use of federal equipment, federal resources, federal bases, federal facilities.
(29:19):
It always becomes a headache. Whether it’s a purpose violation, the anti sufficiency violation, some army reg air afi, whatever it might be, it creates all sorts of issues. So if the governor is thinking in Florida of creating a organized disaster response force then personally, I would rather put it under his Office of Emergency Services and let it be a branch of that. I mean, why I, why put it in the military department? It’s not gonna be military. That’s kind of my attitude. But again, I don’t know what the intent of the governor is. If the governor is intending him to also support the National Guard, then you start creating other problems. If his goal is not to support the National Guard, but to augmented state operational capabilities, then it makes a lot of sense. Why bother the, the great prop relating the d o d if you do
Jean Marciniak (30:15):
The center that is pushing the legislation or advocating for the legislation? Let me get his name. It’s
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (30:27):
Remind me. I know nothing about this other than what you’ve printed. So I am not an expert on what Florida is doing. I’m giving you my general concept relative to how they’re doing, what I believe they’re doing.
Jean Marciniak (30:39):
So Senator Avila Avila, and hopefully I’m pronouncing it correctly he’s the one advocating for this legislation. And he was in essence positioning it that they will augment the National Guard, the ar, army National Guard, air National Guard. So when Air National Guard, army National Guard are deployed they will augment those units primarily being a force multiplier for those units. He was also great. He was also su suggesting that in the next couple years as world tensions kind of rise and that the Army and International Guard for Florida will most likely be mobilized and deployed to certain key hotspots in the zone in, in the, in the world that the Florida State Guard would be needed to assume the role of the National Guard in the state and the duties of the National Guard and Estate. So he was positioning that. So in essence, and looking over the bill again, it, it does say military regulations and then it defines the and, and it just goes into the Florida State Guard. So,
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (31:47):
Well, that’s the case then. I don’t understand. Then they’d better put ’em in uniform because the last thing you want to do, you see a bunch of civilians augmenting people in uniform, you’re gonna make it everybody very confused,
Jean Marciniak (32:00): <Laugh>,
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (32:01):
According to people doing it. Because, you know, rank is, rank has meaning in a military structure. So if you’re now augmenting, let’s say, versus replacing National Guard personnel, which means you are working with the National Guard forces, how do they know whether you have authority to give an order? How do they know what your rank is? So if they’re going to do that, I know the original theory was to put ’em in civilian clothes. If they’re going to do that, I presume they’re gonna, if they’re gonna do that, they’re gonna have put ’em in uniform or you’re gonna have, I personally think a hell of mess. And how do you operate an augmented group of people with a bunch of people in uniform who’s gonna know who to listen to?
Jean Marciniak (32:47):
Yeah. The, I don’t think that would work
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (32:50):
No more. Also wonder how the public could respond if a National Guard unit got called out and and you are now out as an augmenting force with them and you’re now wearing polo shirts and khakis. How are the general public gonna know that you belong with this military force? Cuz and the show of military has a great impact upon civil disturbance. So if a National Guardian is out doing civil disturbance response, the reality is, is that uniform is what’s getting people attention. The National Guard is out, not the National volunteer force is out <laugh>. So if you’re now augmenting them, I just think it’d be a heck of a problem. But, you know, I’m sure they’re dealing with all that in Florida, and I’m just somebody who has no idea what I’m talking about. Those are just my thoughts.
Jean Marciniak (33:42):
The couple of things that kind of I picked apart from the bill I wanted to get your feedback on is the 107.9 million budget that is, is gonna be for the Florida State Guard. I’ve never seen a budget that high for a state guard. Never.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (34:02):
Nope. Doesn’t exist. And why, why it exists, if at all. I, I I I’ve not seen the budget, but I have, you have. I’m presuming a lot of that is for equipment and maintenance. Cuz generally state defense forces don’t have equipment. We don’t, you know, we don’t have cars of our own, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re not, we don’t, we don’t have materials of our own pickup trucks to pull our horse trailers or anything else like that. So if you’re gonna build a budget that high and you’re using volunteers that you’re not paying for, what you’re really doing is providing the resources to allow volunteers to do their jobs by providing them uniforms, uniforms, O C I E, whatever equipment is necessary to be out of the field. Trucks, vehicles, drones, aircraft. As you read to me earlier, that’s where the money’s gotta go though. Cuz you know, personal costs are low and I mean, you can put shoot, you can put, you know, even a full- time group of 20 people on budget for $3 million. So where’s the, you know, the hundred, other hundred million dollars going to, it’s gotta be for equipment. I can’t imagine what else it would be.
Jean Marciniak (35:14):
Yeah, it looks like they, from what I remember reading it, they said something about storage facilities, so their own buildings.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (35:21):
Sure. but that, but it’s all phy physical, phy physical things. It’s either equipment or facilities, but it’s not personnel. I, I’ll be interested in what the final bill looks like and what the final organization looks like. Seriously. interestingly last year when DeSantis governor DeSantis first announced the formation of, of their state guard the press picked it up in a lot of the press coverage was he was creating his own private army. It was very negative. And a lot of the response at that time was not really because they’re gonna be doing blah, blah, blah or consistent with the way things are done, but to then currently take it away from the in general. And I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, I think we’ll add to that story for one of a better phrase.
Jean Marciniak (36:15):
Yeah. The, that’s the other main thing that I wanted to kind of get your feedback on is this if, if you’re kind of illuminating the audience. So one other piece of this bill is unlike any other state guard, state defense force nationwide, every state guard and state defense force is under the command of the Adju General. So if you’re a state guard member, your commanding general of your floor, of your state guard reports to the adjuvant general who then reports to a governor. So there is there’s a person between the state guard commander and the governor and as well the Department of Military Affairs which is the overall parent organization. That’s the organization that manages the Army National Guard, the Air National Guard, the State Guard. And if you have a name of militia, that organization is the parent organization.
(37:09):
So in the Florida State Guard Act the Aju general will be removed as commander of the State Guard removing the AJU in general. So the Commanding general of the Florida State Guard, in fact they actually don’t call it commanding general, they call it the Director of the Florida State Guard, will report directly to the aju in general, skipping the AJU in general. And also the Department of Military Affairs will not be the parent organization of Florida State Guard, which means there will be no supervision there. I wanted to get your feedback on that cuz this is highly unusual as there are about 2000 state guards that, you know, have the same chain of command. This is going to be very different.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (37:56):
Yeah. And again, I told, as I said earlier, I have some mixed emotions on this. The fact that the director, or, well, by not calling them their command in general or commander, it, it makes me believe they’re not looking to make it in military status. Because again, if you don’t have a rank structure, an organizational structure, that’s an issue. I don’t know about Florida’s own military code, but you know, in most states in California included the military code will often incorporate federal regulations and policies that impact the national guards or military of the United States and make them, excuse me, mil military and make them as part of their oversight of their National Guard. Cuz the National Guard, while they’re Title 32 status, which is what the analyst, they’re really federalized, which is when they deploy are not subject to the U C M J.
(39:02):
The U C M J is a Title 10 operation. Command and control has issues with that. There’s lots of things that would not apply to even a National Guard if the states did not either incorporate or adopt. And they generally simply incorporate at some level the federal regulations that would apply and make ’em state law such as a National Guard person is generally court marshal. They are under a state court marshal. But only because it’s now become part of it’s been written in because of the U C M J’S been adopted into state law, which becomes a state action in California. What they’ve done is they have adopted it and then they created their own manual courts marshal for California to control how they prosecuted a National Guard member. Now that same statute, generally in most states, would apply to not only their National Guard, but their state guards cuz it’s written for the military of the state in a sense, you know, the non-federal per personnel which means like the California State Guard are all subject to U C M J actions.
(40:08):
Meaning you could actually prosecute someone for screwing up or doing something improper. You can’t do, you know, you, how are you gonna do that to a civilian? It’ll be very difficult. So if they want these people to, in any way be augmenting National Guard or, or being capable of, of fulfilling all the various missions, then how are they gonna manage you? How are they gonna, how are they gonna regulate them? And if it’s a mix and mash, well we’re gonna do the U C M J for you, but everything else is a civilian, I don’t know. I have no idea how they’re gonna handle it. I guess we can all look and see. That being said, I also love the fact that their director, or whatever you wanna call it, I would prefer it to be a commander reports directly to the governor because I think that provides a viable way forward for a state defense force to become an integral part of the state’s operations. Other than that, they’re usually the stepchild, the, the, the people that are thought of secondarily to help, not primarily. So I like some of it, I don’t like other things. That’s all I can say.
Jean Marciniak (41:26):
Do you feel like that without the a in general and Department of Military Affairs, that, I guess what I’m trying to ask is not having the adju in general there and the Department of Military Affairs supervising the state guard, do you feel like, and I don’t want to get I guess too political here, but do you feel like it would be the governor’s own private army?
Well, it is anyway. I mean, even if it’s not in the military department, it doesn’t have a federal obligation. The governor can still do what he wants with him. I mean, why wouldn’t the governor be able to do that? The governor can use his National Guard for things, the feds, well, some states will send the guard to the border to keep people out. Some states will send people to the border and let people in. That’s cause the governor wants to do it that way. They’re entitled 32, they’re not entitled 10. The governor has tremendous control. I mean, if the president of the United States, the chief of staff in the Army, or the chief of staff in the Air Force and the Secretary of Defense all walked into a building in Florida area, California, where the National Guard was and attempted to give an order other than protocol concepts, your answers should be, I’ll check with my boss, president can’t give an order to anybody in the National Guard.
(42:46):
And I can the director, but the Chief of Staff of the Army or the ch or the or the Secretary of the Defense. They can, and they can do so by having them federalized. And all of a sudden the governor can’t give an order. The governor El alludes all command loses all command and control. You know, I, I’m, I’m being at a base level. There are, there are issues that, there are other issues that are peripheral to that. But, so, you know, the answer is they already are. So why would anybody think that? All of a sudden now the governor’s getting a private army. The governor always does. The governor can say, look it, I want my state defense force in any state to do something for him. He’s the commander in chief. He doesn’t have to go through an in general, they have permission to use the state guard. So what’s the difference?
Jean Marciniak (43:36): Very interesting.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (43:37):
What you think the governor has to say to the in general, excuse me general, can I permission to use your state guard because of the in general says no, he’s probably gonna fired.
Jean Marciniak (43:46): Yeah. <laugh>,
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (43:49):
That’s a, you know, that’s called, you know, many states. It’s called the tag button. The governor hits the tag button, bye. You’re out. What’s, who’s next? <Laugh>. So you tell me where the difference really lies. I think it’s perception and not reality.
Jean Marciniak (44:05):
The other piece that I wanted to get from you was, there is something also that’s going to be separate. The Florida State Guard from other state guards maybe not your state guard. You mentioned you have active armed units. There will be a specialized arm unit created in the Florida State Guard. That’s per the senator that was at the meeting discussing it will be utilized to augments local law enforcement following a major disaster like a hurricane or tornado or severe weather event. They’ll, they’ll be armed. They’ll be assisting local and state law enforcement. And I guess this is un I would say unusual for most state guards. Cuz most state guards, I would say 99% except yours do not have armed units. They’re, they do the support aspect of the military. You do the California State Guard. I know you were mentioning earlier, you do have armed personnel that assist with base security and other matters. How
do you feel about this specialized army unit Unit? What are your thoughts?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (45:17):
That’s, I dunno how they plan on using them. If they’re saying they’re gonna augment local law enforcement as an independent o operation and they’re not in military status. I, I have concerns about it. When, when we augment National Guard with our, you know, our armed unit, they’re working in conjunction with the National Guard, either on a National Guard facility or jointly in traffic control points or fixed point security. If they’re going to use these people effectively as an independent policing agency, that’s a whole different can of worms. I wouldn’t even know how to touch that one. So I, I think I’d have to know more about what they plan on doing with them, just cuz they’re armed. I have no problems with that. I mean, I, I once had a conversation with a, an Army guard general, you know, in the natural tendencies.
(46:07):
Why would we ever arm the state guard by God? What a disaster that could be. And my answer is, what would you rather have an 18 year old National Guard infantryman that is only has got an 18 year old undeveloped brain cuz they don’t develop till they’re 25 fully developed with the, with, with thinking like an 18 year old without the governors that get there until you’re 25 or shortly a little older and is probably only now fired his first weapon during basic training out on the streets with an M four. Or would you have someone from your state guard who’s most likely over 25 has a fully developed brain, less likely to do stupid shit, and also more likely to have experience with weapons, which would you rather have? And he looked at me and goes, wow, I never thought about it that way. Well, think about it that way. So the, the basic premise of why would you arm a not, why would you, why shouldn’t your arm mistake guard makes no sense to me. That’s me personally. Makes no sense.
Jean Marciniak (47:12):
The senator did mention that because last year the Florida National Guard was activated to assist the Florida Department of Corrections because they’re having a severe staffing shortage. The National Guard did assist or augment the staff of the Department of Corrections. It, it kind of alluded to that the state guard would also assist in that aspect. He was kind of firm that this, by the way, the Senator Avila I hope I’m pronouncing his name correct. He’s
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (47:42):
Probably Avala assuming, I’m assuming it’s Avala, but I don’t know
Jean Marciniak (47:45):
Avala. He is a, I’m guessing he’s a first lieutenant on top of being a senator. He’s a first lieutenant in the Army, national Guard for Florida. So, okay. He was mentioning that that Florida has one of the biggest, is one of the biggest states in the country, has a very small National guard, and that the state guard could be utilized more for domestic missions while the Army and International Guard can fulfill their federal role with deployments.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (48:12):
I agree with that wholeheartedly. What do you think I’ve been saying, and by the way, I I, if I’m not
mistaken, the Ohio State Defense Force actually were put in the prisons during covid Yeah. To help certainly at the administrative level because they were losing their prison guards to covid and the close confines with prisoners. I think that already happened in Ohio, to be honest with you. I think it’s, I think it’s a perfect mission. What’s wrong with that? And I, I don’t see a problem with having armed units of the state guard. My, again, my question is what is their status? Not, are they armed or are they helping during, you know, disasters? Of course they should be, but what is their status? Is it going to be the creation of an independent police force or is it a military force that, that that component of it that is, you know, capable of doing that is being called up to augment local law enforcement during a disaster. And I think the devil may be simply into details.
Jean Marciniak (49:18):
I think it was more with the number two from what I was witnessing during the during the council meeting, the, I guess the one last thing that they were kind of focusing on, it did pass the approach appropriations council on the state senate. So it is heading over, I believe, to the senate floor for a full vote. And then I’m assuming after that to the governor’s office for his signature I guess, we’ll, we will have to kind of circle back on this. We are trying to get in touch with them. We do have some contacts in the Florida National Guard that are looking into confirming some information. But another state guard that also is doing corrections work is the South Carolina State Guard.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (50:06):
Oh, okay. I didn’t know that. Good.
Jean Marciniak (50:08):
Yeah, they’re, they, I believe have permanent units that are augmenting the South Carolina Department of Corrections. I find that very interesting. What are your thoughts on, because this would be the, I i at this point, the third state that would be assisting in corrections work?
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (50:23):
Well, it, it’s, what you’re looking at is when law enforcement needs to be augmented and corrections is a, a law enforcement agency, I assume, or the equivalent thereof. Why would, if you could use your National Guard, why wouldn’t you use your state defense force? And if you are using your natural guard, you’ve got all sorts of other issues regarding that, including retention. You know, national Guard people often join because they like drawing one weekend a month and a couple weeks in the summer, and they all understand they may deploy once or twice, but they’re not thinking of this as something you’re doing all the time. And retention can be tremendously impacted by the amount of utilization of your National Guard during a necessarily non-emergency standard or a more regular standard. So in some respects, having a state guard provides a whole different pool of people.
(51:21):
And, and why I think state defense forces are critical and why they’re so different from just having a bunch of people that are volunteering is they operate in a military environment and what is the military environment, but command and control that command and control function with a hierarchy established by rank allows for smooth operations of reactive forces. They know who to talk to, who to respond to, how to respond, and, and, and they understand that a failure to do so leaves them into a whole different mess and world of U C M J violations that the common civilian does not have, simply doesn’t exist. I used to joke about, you know, cyber in California put people out on cyber and my comment would, what would you rather have someone responding to a cyber attack that if they got in the system, somehow used it to their own advantage while, while booting it back up again or, or are fixing it? Would you rather have them sign a non-disclosure agreement and now to figure out how I’m gonna civilly sue them for breaching my nda or simply charge ’em with a crime because they now violated the U C M J in a direct order. Most people say, shit, I’d rather have U C M J. It’s a hell of a greater sort of damocles, they’re getting some civilian that’s now breached an nda
Jean Marciniak (52:40): Hmm.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (52:41):
You know, nondisclosure agreement. So the answer is, again, it, it really depends how you want to u utilize and what you wanna do. And I simply presume that once Florida, if they go in this direction, and I hope they do, I mean stand up their state guard are going to have a lot of regulations and policies to write for operational purposes. And I hope they’re more and more akin to a military environment with command and control with the governor being the commander in chief rather than just the boss of a director.
Jean Marciniak (53:14):
Okay. I think that’s a perfect place to leave it. The I do have a couple of I did want to kind of bounce off that and kind of dive into state guard versus state guard and law enforcement. But I’m gonna save that for the next episode cuz sure that will that’s gonna be a bigger discussion. So let me close out the episode. So this will end episode one. And also we want to inform you to suggest to you to help support state defense force.com. We do have a Patreon. You can go to patreon.com/state Defense Force. We’ll put in the links in the description and I’ll finish out the episode here. Thank you general for joining the podcast. Thanks for being a host for this new podcast. As we we start this up and hopefully we will have some more news for you guys next month.
Maj. Gen. Jay Coggan (54:11):
Yeah. And I look forward to doing a podcast with people actually calling in or, or chatting in with questions when this, when, when you get this more widely disseminated instead up in the future. Cuz that’s the most fun is when you get to answer individual questions of dialogue. I look forward to.
